Some of the best handgun calibers for self defense are: To adequately understand the efficiency of incapacitating a target, we must have some basic understanding of the mechanics of wounding how damage to the human body works. My personal opinion is that the military has found that many recruits are unable to accurately fire the .45 and cannot manage the recoil. Reality. Not concerned with concealed carry. A 7.6225 is venerated as so amazing by PPsh humpers. (As my Sr. DI liked to say Two in the chest, and one in the head, then youre pretty damned sure that the bastard is dead.. There have been several attempts by ballistics engineers to increase the wounding ability of a round. Of these, the hollow point round is the most common and effective. But what I am struggling to understand is some of the ludicrous logic coming fromvarious sides of the issue. Very smart Chris ! However, at 15 feet in your living room that is a concern regardless of what you are using unless you have a 22 or a 380. I spent FAR more money letting her out every pistol they had for rent than I did purchasing her final choice. Gimme a break! Example; a bb to the eyeball is very effective. For those that think their their 45 is best, Ill shoot my 9mm and for those that think their 9mm is best, Ill shoot my 45. Not everyone is as capable or as comfortable at shooting a .45ACP as they are a 9mm. Indeed, in some studies, such as one conducted by the Law Enforcement Assistance Administration (LEAA), the temporary cavity is assumed to be the primary handgun wounding factor. I have a Glock19 and Glock23 chambered .40S&W and that is a great round to. Experiences on the streets say otherwise. Space radiation is made up of protons and all the elements on the periodic table. Its actually much more simple than most would like to think. Hogwash!! Especially when it carries nearly double the mass with the bullet? for every day carry. So Marines are now trained to simply kill them. Slow-motion videos of ballistics tests clearly illustrate this difference. Were investigating how it spends its money. Handgun Wounding Factors: A Caliber Effectiveness Guide for Self Defense and Body Damage, Creative Commons Attribution 4.0 International License, Best Self-Defense Caliber and Damage to the Human Body, Effectiveness of Bullet Wounds: How Gunshot Wounds Work, What Happens When You Get Shot: Damage to the Human Body. The lack of penetration, compared to a 9mm ,from a 45 can be eliminated by using a long barrel , 5+, and +P rounds. One hit with any caliber has more stopping power than 100 misses with any caliber, type bullet or inherent accuracy. Well judging by the fact that .45 has been killing people since at least the 1870sI'd say it can really screw up your day. This article will define what the question which handgun round has the best stopping power? means, and offer unbiased information that will help the readers to make up their own minds on the subject. John I agree, the Browning Black Label in 380 ACP is a superb gun. Penetration of 7" pine boards for various pistol calibres: Illustrative penetration capabilities of a 30-06 full -jacketed rifle bullet at a velocity of 2700 ft/s and at a range of 200 yd: 1" of armour plate 7" of gravel 4.5" of brick 4" of concrete 32" of oak wood 6.5" of dry sand 7" of moist sand 26" of loam 24" of clay 19" of loose earth 60" of 1" pine boards, Continue reading here: General wound ballistic concepts, FREE Military Tough 6-in-1 Tactical Survival Knife, Free 2nd Amendment Gun Rights Silver Coin, Green Beret Master Sergeant Home Security Checklist, Winning Plays Texted To Your Phone That Comes Directly From An Elite Team Of Sharps, Ballistics Theory Straight Line Muzzle To Target, Internal External and Terminal Ballistics, High Standard Pistols - Firearms identification, Drop In Auto Sear - AR15 to M16 Conversion. Everything from grip, shooting stance, limp wrist-ing and recoil spring pressure was examined. who proved the .45-caliber round has SO MUCH more knockdown power than the 9mm that it only requires one shot to incapacitate a threat? Generous readers sustain our work. So the moral of the story, use what you like, justify it any way you can, and enjoy the shooting sports, its fun, but if your life is on the line, well just give me a 45 in a 1911 Please. They have to show the bean counters proof for the money to fund the switch of caliber. One thing to note is that for more most applications the military is restricted to FMJ loads. You must have JavaScript enabled in your browser to utilize the functionality of this website. I agree with your bad guy statement, but when I was training to become a Paramedic and obviously most of the training was done in the ER so we definitely saw damner everything you can imagine especially a lot of gunshot incidents and what I can tell you was that we were able to save and keep more bad guys alive who were shot with 9mm multiple times than those who had been shot 1-2 times with a .45. The comments concerning shot placement are correct. Most people get creatine through seafood and red meat though at levels far below those found in synthetically made creatine supplements. This whole conversation for over 2+ years is hilarious. I have yet to see this. The only argument I have ever heard that actually makes any sense is the most recent comment where former law enforcement States the possibility of collateral damage from over penetration. With those factors in mind, Id prefer one of the calibers most likely to immediately incapacitate and prevent return fire. I do not argue with this decision; however, I believe agents who can control the larger weapons/bullets without a problem should have the choice to carry weapons with the larger bullets. Shot placement rules. This story of a Chicago-suburb police officer should answer that one for you. Colt Defender 3" 45 ACP; Colt Gov't 70 Series; Kimber Warrior, w/ Rail; Kimber Warrior II; Kimber Super Carry Pro; Kimber Super Carry Ultra, 45 ACP, 3" Remington 1911 R1 Enhanced 5" 45 ACP; Ruger SR1911 Commander 4 Colt Model 1903 Pocket Hammerless the is bone different muscle mass fat and other bonds in our bodies Dr. Peter Rhee is a trauma surgeon who operated on victims of the 2011 shooting at a political event in Tucson, Arizona, in which six people were killed and 13 wounded in a hail of 9mm bullets. A .223 is just 55 grains. All rights reserved. I am not going to address the whole military, spec-ops, battlefield blah blah. Only high-velocity rounds (those with an impact velocity of 2,000 feet per second or more) with soft or hollow points reliably offer fragmentation. A good hit from either will wreck an adversarys day . You are up close and personal with this guy. Fire Rate: 240 Be Safe Out There. The better the bullet and the shot placement of an officer, the more likely the officer will go home after a shooting. May everyone who reads this have a Blessed Day! Select the option or tab named Internet Options (Internet Explorer), Options (Firefox), Preferences (Safari) or Settings (Chrome). You could smell the gunpowder. The 7.62 round is not as fast as the .223, the round fired by the AR-15 (Americas most popular semiautomatic rifle), but it, . It is really scary to think that a jury would put any weight behind what he says knowing that the rest of my life will be determined by the crap spewed forth from him. very obvious. He didnt get more than three feet from the bathroom. S&W was required to announce it due to SEC requirements as they are one of the only publicly-owner companies. I am just way more comfortable with the way it shoots. Bob. That is those of us that has and carries guns. He came up in this world initially through his 8-year experience with a state-level law enforcement agency in Colorado. So I want a round that will do the trick no matter if he flinches or I do. I would love to get my hands on the data and map it by cartridge. This study is still referenced time and again for its information about wounds inflicted by grenade and shell fragments, but what it says about handgun bullets doesnt fit the bigger r always better narrative, so that parts been buried and forgotten. I carry a Glock 19 with 15+1 and am quite crafty with it. You cannot make a man by standing a sheep on its hind legs. The bullet had disintegrated his spleen and torn his aorta. After the FBI, he served as a Massachusetts Deputy Inspector Generaland is currently a deputy sheriff for Plymouth County, Massachusetts. 0.22" Lead air gun pellet requires a minimum of 250 ft/s velocity to penetrate fresh human skin. You know, Indians killed each other, white settlers, and hunted with a bow &. Proper shot placement is the lamest argument based on logic. For those not in the military, go for what you want. Steel BB or 0.177" lead pellet at 200 ft/s will detach part of the coloured portion (iris) of a human eye leaving what appears to be a second pupil. This is real life experience not article information research. That will put anything down.But if it comes time to kill a man should there be any fun in it. In those 53 years, weve built a reputation as one of Texass most trusted firearms dealers, and we did it in a state where sellers of used guns are almost as common as oil wells and prime rib. Makes no difference to me. Sign up now to get our latest stories and eye-opening briefings. And the quicker the better when someones fanning a gun at you. Small grip,,Low recoil,,, easy conceability One size does Not fit all. Its certain to elicit a wide variety of opinions and almost as likely to stir up an argument. Anything else is a simple failure to prepare. The only reason law enforcement and, military use a 9mm is budget. It makes a bigger hole. Everyone talking about knock down power verses speed seems like. You have bo clue what youre talking about other than maybe your steel target fell over a little easier with a heavier bullet at the range. Love reading your stuff. Glock 19 only playing catch up with those guns. When you purchase through links on our site, we may earn an affiliate commission, which supports our community. But, this little word but often comes up in real life. The idea that a bullet has the power to knock an adversary to the ground is a Hollywood myth. I also do not understand why the M&P was disqualified, but it could be that other manufacturers guns have already been eliminated as well. And I am surprised that this was not mentioned. My understanding in past test 9mms dont do well in front car windshield stops. What, is that like an every day occurrence? Following the incident, significant changes were made to the firepower carried by agents, the body armor they wore and the incident response training they received. If, God forbid, you are ever in a situation where you are required to use your handgun, there is, to put it mildly, a great deal at stake. A. H. Hassall, The microscopic anatomy of the human body Wellcome L0024128.jpg 1,100 1,796; 960 KB. 1039 NE Loop 410San Antonio, TX 78209(210)-533-5431, 819 Hot Wells BlvdSan Antonio, Texas 78223(210)-533-5468, WE SHIP TO ANYWHERE IN THE UNITED STATES, Copyright 2023 Durys Guns | Powered by Durys Guns. The amount of energy deposited in the body by a bullet is approximately equivalent to being hit with a baseball.. In combat the one thing that does count is having more capacity, whether you miss or have more threats to neutralize, more capacity is a good thing no matter how you look at it. The expansive quality of these rounds creates larger permanent cavities. Practice thats all it takes. He watched MARSOC during a multi-national special forces competition, MARSOC couldnt compete with the low capacity 1911. Two shots were within an inch of his heart. Are there exceptions? The 9 mm and the round for the 9 mm is by far the cheaper not the better choice! People like the OP of the TIFU have been shot right above their heart and lungs, with .223 and despite a nasty, nasty exit wound and the shot placement, walked it off. All this newer powder and more efficient bullets. It appears now we have had to Dumb Down our .45cal. I thought a 55 115lb girl with small hands would want a .380, so I was surprise when she chose a Walther PPS in 9mm. 125 gr 9 mm PB fully jacketed bullet will generally penetrate both skins of a car door. I like all of them. Sorry for the lengthy comment just my humble opinion. Im sorry but a 225 grain bullet going 850 1200+ fps vs a 127 grain bullet going 975 1150 fps is going to be more effective and deadly. A .50 Desert Eagle is no good if you cannot carry it and get it out and shoot it accurately and fairly quickly, no matter what the knock-down power if you were able to hit anything with it. As stated before, this article isnt intended to solve the stopping power debate, but only to discuss the issues it involves. The same companies make the 45acp and other calibers! The amount of energy a bullet radiates into a target is determined by a simple formula taught in high school: Its the product of one half the projectiles mass times the square of the velocity. Asking that question around gun owners is like bringing up religion or politics at a party. In other words slower bullet JHP more energy transferred more effective. In their book, Defense of Self and Others, FBI firearms training experts John Hall and Urey Patrick (ret. I use +P ammo. Riley, love your artical. Source: The former is by far the leading reason for handgun ownership. handgun on the UN Side. Take it this way, someone shoots at you, you at them. As to which will stop a human fasterhavent a darn clue. To each his own. You can have all the knockdown power in the world but unless you place it thats going to do the most damage then it doesnt matter if its a 9 millimeter or 45. This post has been updated to include information released by the FBI regarding the weapon used in the shooting. But the modern bullets are getting better all the time! In fact you are 1000 rounds short. I have handgun hunted for over 25 yrs and enjoy it immensly, and also do a lot of reloading.IF a guy wants to carry a 45 or 9 or anything else and are comfortable and proficient with either, then why not? When they enter the body, they spread out into a star-shaped pattern that enhances the damage caused by the wound channel. Train, train train and when your done. I am at a loss for words as I read the above two paragraphs like literally at a loss for words. Its a High Point .40S&W. Because head shots are rare and extremely difficult, and torso hits are likewise difficult and do not result in immediate incapacitation, choosing handgun bullets for officers is a critically important task. Thats good, it is always good for people to find what works best for them. I think everyone should think back to why the 1911 was made. Witch in reality are only good enough to fight yourself to a long gun I have 2 Henry levers that shoot the same .357 having 3 weapons. thanks for your time, greg. 3, both hemolymph ACP and AKP activities of P. clarkii were significantly decreased in the 30 and 50 mg/L groups compared to the control (P < 0.01).Similarly, PO activity also exhibited a significant reduction in the 30 mg/L group (P < 0.05) and the 50 mg/L group (P < 0.01), respectively.However, LZM activity showed a significant increase I am a Force Recon Marine with 10 years of advanced military training and have served 7 separate combat tours. Modern ammunition changes the field somewhat. I can load my rounds as hot as I want, and often do. R45 Ammo Type: .45 ACP. of a 24-year-old man struck in the chest by a .40-caliber hollow-point pistol round, doctors found organ damage outside the direct path of the bullet. I like the P227 better. I carry a s&w .357 airweight not fun to shoot due to recoil and sound. The FBI Training Division reported in May 2014 that officers, on average, strike an adversary with only 20 percent to 30 percent of the shots fired during a shooting incident. Math is absolute and backs what Ive stated. This gave the enemy a chance to still bury a spearhead in the shooters chest, before finally collapsing from internal damage and blood loss. Great little weapon !!! The 7.62 round is not as fast as the .223, the round fired by the AR-15 (Americas most popular semiautomatic rifle), but it hits its target with more energy. Thats the secret. At The Trace, we examine what happens after bullets are sold, shot, and wound human beings. Para Ordnance 12-45, officer size 1911 .45acp with 12 or 14 rd mags. At 10-20 yards I want a .45. Do any one you know carry just ball rounds in their handguns? Good job Chris and the rest of you but remember when you give gun advise target shooting and self defense shooting are two different scenarios and one can get you deadyou cant shoot my gun as good as me but you can shoot your gun because its the best one for you. In the technical language of ballistics engineers, the standard unit of measurement for a bullets mass is grains of metal, and depending on the manufacturer, a .7.62. can weigh in at 125 grains. ACP cystic fluid caused growth retardation and an increased obesity index in mice, affected the expression of the Npy, Fgfr2, Rnpc3, Sst, and Pcsk1n genes that regulate growth and energy metabolism in hypothalamic neurons, and enhanced the cellular interaction of AgrpMc3r. When the cavalry at the time switched to the .45 round, the round was effective in doing enough damage to put them down more effectively. Anyway great comments to all. The two most important factors to consider, in order of importance, are penetration and permanent cavitation. But a high-muzzle weapon shatters that bone into hundreds of microscopic pieces, in a way that cannot be repaired. (stress free situation) I also have a sig, p38 and carry that when its warm out.hightly concealable in a alien gear holster. and that the data you submit is exempt from Do Not Sell My Personal Information requests. In the above GIF of ballistics gel taking a .50-cal. However, in early 2015 the door was cracked open, allowing them to choose Glock 19's (chambered in 9mm) instead of their larger counterpart. JavaScript seems to be disabled in your browser. Fire Rate: 1,000 rounds/minute. Wound-cavity analysis tells a similar story concerning the .380 ACP, with individuals shot by the round able to function seconds to minutes after being shot. Id use either! All animals died pretty much on location. Great article by the way. Obama wants us dead. This is why you must choose your weapon carefully and train with it diligently. Were they not the agency who got thier asses handed to them that created this debate in the first place? I just know the most important thing is to shoot a lot, and carry the gun you are most comfortable shooting. While each of them has no direct bearing on incapacitation, they must all be considered. Glocks are cheap and reliable. Your shots have to count. Japanese quail chicks in a studythe results The flesh can tear and cells can burst as the tissue erupts outward and then slams back. LE, south LA and Watts for 8 1/2 out of 15 years. I dont have a dog in that race but it is important to give proper information, not just anything that will satisfy your viewpoint no matter how erroneous. And Im not always concerned with concealing. JavaScript is disabled. Damage: 62. You prefer the .45 for stopping power? If the technology got better for one caliber, it got better for all of them!! Real world combatants or keyboard commandos. The primary result of permanent cavity damage is profuse bleeding. With the 45 2 at most. Thank you Rich if you need 15 rounds to put down the assailant youre in trouble already, I have not near the experience of some of the veterans in the service. Think the title of this article is misleading. It enters the human body at energies approaching the speed of light and Small, light, and more rugged than a lot plastic guns. Type of ammo, stopping power, number of shots, shot placement, kick back, does the gun fit your hand, and whether your cheap crappy gun jams on you these are all part of the equation. Good article and very good to great comments. The .45, for instance, is slightly slower than the 9mm, but features a more massive projectile, with 250 grains of mass compared to the 9mms typical 115 grains. Lexipol. Of course providing as to the type of ammo. The Department of Defense has recently been taking a hard look at the sidearms and sidearm calibers issued to today's military personnel on the front lines. Ive got a good deal of ballistic and aeronautical knowledge under my belt, and I agree in flight friction coefficient is not something that plays a significant enough role in comparative analysis of 9mm and 45 Auto at practical ranges. The last time such a broad survey of gun ownership in America was done, long arms ruled the day and Americans were largely interested in weapons for hunting and other sporting uses. Sudden, immediate and even instant death. I have 9 mm and I own mostly 45 ACPs, I can conceal a combat Commander with a small of the back holster with shorts T-shirt and flip-flops and nobody will know its there. Ive come to a conclusion that many people lean towards the 9 mm including the military because its easier to control and thus are more accurate, especially for a teenager fresh out of high school. If I wanted to hit a little harder, I would maybe look for a WC .45 mold in the 220 to Just came down from AK and bears and mad moose have been my biggest issue. I think the armchair warriors need to think about how a pistol is barely effective in military situations. Why arent both so much better than .223? Now call me a troll as I suspect you may be in love with your clunky Glock and .9mm round. Through and through shots were the issue and the 9 just bounced of bones and exited. But you still want the best caliber possible, because while people are disposed to fall down when shot, not every target does. Military ball ammo leaves some things to be desired. Dan, your and many others comments ring true. In case you didn't get the memo, the FBI's ballistic testing labs are the best in the world, and they've been doing it for a long time. After decades of witnessing the 45 vs 9 mm battle. However, others say that the lowly .22 LR has the best stopping power, since it stays in the targets body and bounces around, shredding arteries and punching holes in internal organs. Confirmed by projectiles taken out of Papa. Damage: 22 per pellet. Do Not Sell My Personal Information, If you need further help setting your homepage, check your browsers Help menu, Handgun Wounding Factors and Effectiveness,, Lethal Force and the Objectively Reasonable Officer,, FBI Training Division Justifies 9mm Caliber Selection, supervisory and municipal liability in law enforcement. Scratch expensive 45s. There were 3 casings in the bathroom and a couple of more in the living room 10-12 ft away. Slow him down, double up, spin/alter his track-anything to allow you to get that second shot and the empty the clip. I sure do love 45acp though. For example, a shot through the side of the body must penetrate between 10 to 12 inches to hit the heart. Sorry for the rant. Patrick states that since vital organs are located deep within the body, it should be obvious that to ignore penetration and permanent cavity is to ignore the only proven means of damaging or disrupting vital organs. Remember it is massive blood loss that causes circulatory collapse. My neighbor saw that the guy was afraid of the thing and couldnt get back on target after the 1st shot due to the recoil and his flinching with every shot. I dont have the time to read it. The 9mm isnt a garbage round but feeling better with these 230 grain Winchester Rangers loaded on my side. About 5 yrs ago I read a document comparing the damage to a human body wearing, at the time, state of the art LE body armor. In the past, one of the standard tests performed to assess bullet and cartridge performance was the penetration of pine boards of various thicknesses. In the woods my .45 r1 with cast is what I carry. If Agent Doves bullet had entered Platts heart, he would have perished quickly, before launching his life-ending assault. The one thing Ive learned and seen over a lot of shooting is that a 9mm with FMJ bullets is mostly useless. Youll shoot how you train is one, but many dont train. And while its not the final word on wound ballistics, its an important contribution to what should be an ongoing discussion. If I think it can get that bad where Im going. You may as well go off and say Ill just take a Judge and shoot .410 buckshot, or .45 long colt if you are trying to inflict the most damage. The rest of the argument as far as damage goes, should be common sense. Anyone who has seen Clint Eastwoods Dirty Harry movies is familiar with Sergeant Callahans favorite sidekick, his .44 magnum revolver. Not everyone can adequately conceal a full-sized Colt 1911. However, it does suffer from the same issue as the .40s&w, and that is that its snappier in its recoil impulse. Developed in the early 1960s, the .223 round was first used in Vietnam.